Amazing.

This has some interesting points. I’d like to hear your opinion on the 10 things helping indie music.

As much as revivalism is an unfortunate trend, it’s a little harsh to compare it to Transformers 3. Revivalism is more the Super 8 of music – done in the style of times passed but still with an underlying original idea. The musical equivalent of Transformers 3 would more likely be albums full of only cover songs. Auto-tuned cover songs.

I don’t understand how you can say that ‘suspicion of ambition’ is killing indie music and then, two pages later, criticize Lana del Rey for having ambition (i.e. an image and a management team). I also don’t understand how glamming it up like Catherine Deneuve is considered capitalizing on an ‘indie’ image. So what if Pitchfork likes her? Pitchfork also likes Feist and Beyonce. Lana del Rey didn’t trick them into liking her. They like her songs, even if you or I don’t. And indie music is going to be fine.

I would add to this the weird conservatism around female sexuality. Women can be matrons, librarians, or twee little children, but show some cleavage and you are a lamestream tool of the patriarchy. Also: hatred of costumes and anyone who brings any kind of theatricality to their performances. Seriously, I almost hit someone in a fight about whether or not Rasputina was “gimmicky” because they dress in something other than cords and button-downs. Ugh.

“God hates us all.”
wasn’t something just said about cynicism? (which would — i think — include sarcasm(

I’m not going to finish reading this article. Placing two or three paragraphs on a page to force people to scroll thru may increase your page views and therefore your ad revenues, but it frustrates readers. Most people who insist on doing this provide a “read as a single page” link. Those that don’t slowly lose readers.

But it is going to make a great case study for your article on “10 That Are Killing Music Journalism Online.”

Revivalism is more like doing a remake of a classic movie.
e.g. the impending Total Recall reboot or the new Conan
Transformers 3 is just a shitty sequel to a shitty movie.

Coulda done without the constant examples. If you say people need to start holding their criticism and be gentle and kind, then why throw wavves and Mumford and sons under the boss. You succeeded at being part of the problem you’re talking about. And I’ve never listened to either of the bands, so I’m not some offended fan. It’s just the principle of the thing.

Story should printed be on one page, not ten.

Interesting article but note that these same problems aren’t unique just to indie rock (as opposed to other types of music) and aren’t necessarily new phenomenons. Also, the Yuck record is good! So is the Viva Brother record, even if it is (as you said) pretty derivative.

Regarding #9, there are still bands like Kings of Leon and Black Keys who had a number of albums before they hit “big.” I’m not sure of their early album sales numbers vs. REM, but I don’t think every band is jettisoned if their first album isn’t a hit.

All good points…but see your own number 3 (Cynicism). What do you suggest we, as consumers, do about it? I’m all depressed now.

I agree with practically all these points. The only thing I disagree with is this website’s format of having to click through to each point. Is it about clicks and traffic? Anyway, good article despite that. I see many parallels with contemporary (visual) art too.

Interesting stuff. I have bemoaned the whole “indie” label because I felt it was totally pretentious and full of itself and it’s worship of exclusivity. The whole scene makes me cringe. Also, the fact that it seems to have shunned any serious groove-oriented influence/direction makes it ever more boring.
However! I have a total loathing of the corporate machine that is today’s pop music. I feel caught in a no-win where i can’t seem to find new music that I am passionate about. The last person to get my wholehearted attention was Jeff Buckley, and Oasis for a little bit before they went totally huge and boring.
Well, maybe it’s because I am 40? Maybe I love Led Zeppelin too much. Or the Stones? Or my standards are too high?
Either way, I applaud many of the points in this article and kudos for bringing them to light!
To better music ahead!!!!

“It’d really be lovely if everyone’d stop trying so hard to be what they’re supposed to be, and just be themselves.”

I love how with one sentence you managed to be a dull, vaguely condescending cliche, even though it took three separate points and supporting paragraphs to argue against bands like that.

Please don’t make me reload a page 10 times to read one article

Your complaint about the dullness in indie music and the style as substance of Lana Del Ray is completely contradictory. Feels to me like the majority of the beef with her isn’t based around her music either (as you cited is with her hype) its that from the right angle shes a smoke show and women that are complaining seem a bit jealous.

I agree with the dullness though, and Ill take a mysteriously bankrolled LDR over another snoozer Bon Iver clone with half the talent.

you’re just the cutest little contradiction ever, flavorwire.

Some good points, but you missed the biggest problem with Indie Music in 2011…

Writers & publications spend all of their energy trying to be above all of the bullshit by writing cynical features about how cynical everyone else is and how all of the popular bands don’t deserve to be. It’s easy to pick apart Lana Del Ray, Pitchfork, Black Lips…etc. Everyone does it. I’ve done it. But all you’re doing is giving these people more attention. attention of any kind builds them up further, helps them sell tickets, records, ideas.

You guys should be putting your energy into profiling the artists and events that counteract the negative side of the industry. focus on the prolific songwriters who continue to get ignored because they don’t have a hip name, image, publicist. Focus on the deeply sincere records that lack quirky samples and take time and thoughtful listeners to appreciate them. Focus on the artists too involved in their music to be concerned with how to look cool.

these things won’t attract as many commenters to your site, and therefore advertisers dollars will plummet, but you can be satisfied with not contributing to the bullshit.

So “keeping it real” dullness sucks, but so do Lana Del Rey and Lady Gaga for glamming it up and not being authentic?

Yeah, I remember when I too was a youngster with all kinds of confused, contradictory, ultimately shallow opinions about pop music.

Thanks for this. I was really in the dumps over not connecting to as much stuff coming out as i was used to. Frequently being uniterested in what pitchfork described in reviews was making me feel out of touch.

I would put more weight into your criticisms if I believed for one moment that you would have really good things to say about other bands that hit the mainstream. I’ve seen this type of criticism launched at the music industry since a studio head programmed a group called the Monkees to be the next big teen hit. The corporate machinery that shoves Kesha, Black Eyed Peas, Katy Perry, Eminem, etc down our collective throats also shoved Bobby Goldsboro, The Partridge Family, as well as the endless barrage of Jimi Hendrix, Beatles, and Rolling Stone reissues.
My version of Indie, I have no doubt, is entirely different from yours but I always live in hopes that bands that I like find a way to make a living at it. I find Chris Thile and the Punch Brothers to be as self-serving in their market as Munford and Sons, the Avett Brothers are twice more interesting to hear, but I still live in hope that the 23 String Band find a national audience. (Admittedly, once they hit that level of acceptance, my own admiration for them will dim as I tend toward a knee jerk negative response toward anything that somehow garners mass appeal in any music genre.)
But I have plenty to be excited about in the world of Indie that I inhabit. I adore most of the bands being released off of Joan Jett’s own Black Heart label, even if they are a bit derivative of Jett’s own sound. Though Girl in a Coma is fast becoming dear to my heart.
In Georgia there is also a band called Packway Handle Band which will never attain more than regional success. There are going to continue to be bands that have marginal appeal, college appeal, regional appeal, and some – with the right marketing clout – may actually achieve mass appeal. I personally can’t wait for that to happen to Those Darlins – they are working themselves ragged to achieve that success. And once they get there, I can’t wait to read the articles from music critics who are just sick to death about who is making all the money.

Hey Tom, I’m worried. The comment roll seems to be minus the usual jaded hipster wanna-be journalists moaning about your opinions, that usually follow up your articles (they are good for a laugh though). People are agreeing with you and applauding your points? What happened?! Seriously though, another great article. Americans will never get your Aussie sarcasm, but your writing is on point as always!

Oops there’s the comment we’ve been waiting for. Thanks Dawson – ” I love how with one sentence you managed to be a dull, vaguely condescending cliche, dull, vaguely condescending cliche”. And the ‘I had to hit reload then times to read it’. Oh boo hoo. White people problems… Ba hahah hhaaaa haaaar! Love it!

Good piece, mostly true. Now, go write and expose some good bands.

This article is so ridiculously dumb, contradictory and inane.
Jonny Leather hit the nail on the head with his comment.

[...] published a piece on The 10 Things That Are Killing Indie Music in 2011 today and I have to say I think it was a pretty shitty article from a site I look forward to [...]

Got to page four and it stopped working, nice one. Was there really too much text to put on one page?

[...] Flavorwire: Lana Del Ray and 9 other things killing indie rock. [...]

indie = boring
no body “loves” indie music they just pretend to, to be “Cool”
Poseurs, the whole lot of you.
Proof: If you ever liked a band a little less, band because they had a hit, they you are a poseur.

the only thing good about this article was it telling me about viva brother. i kinda like em. wouldnt lump em with black lips but hey im not the idiot trying to make a dumb internet list to drive traffic off of twitter and facebook.

fantastic piece. i’ll toss my lot in with others clamoring for a “10 things helping indie music” article.

This was a great, well-written and spot on article! Musicians need to be challenging the norm, challenging what’s expected of them, while staying true to themselves. Instead, they produce the same old shit and try hard to look just like everyone else. I recently wrote an article on my own blog, http://readinnrhythm.blog.com about these same ideas titled, “Screw the Boring Cool Vibe and Get Down With Your Sassy Self.” I focused more on how contemporary artists need more style, need to say something with their art and express their real selves. I used Jean Knight (“Mr. Big Stuff” was her huge hit) as a classic songstress we could draw inspiration from… though I agree, rather than using these old soul and rock stars as inspiration, too many bands just rip them off.

So, indie music is going downhill, and all of your reasons are true and well explained… what’s to be done about it? What are some practical, realistic ways to change this? Obviously, musicians can step it up with their songwriting… anything else?

And yet again, another rock critic decides that Mumford and Sons is too Whatever for words. Some of us really like their stuff. But it’s good to know that my lifelong tendency to never like any popular music is still at play, if you assume that “critical approval” equals popular.

Just wait a sec, something is bound to drop. It’s time.

If you were listening to The Twilight Singers and the Gutter Twins, you’d feel less pessimistic about indie music.

If I click on the mindless “Like” or “+1″. Would that make me a killer for this “Indie” article.
I believe most people over-think about their choices. Trust your judgement on music and listen to what makes you happy.

“10 That Are Killing Music Journalism Online.”

its bad enough with the multi-page click throughs for a paragraph of content, BUT the annoying display ads that make you rearrange your text on your screen after one is about 1/3 through the article – on every f*cking page – is beyond tolerable.

other sites often offer readers the chance to view multi-page articles in “print view”, providing a single page (and removing the tiresome images) for readers.

be the change you want to see in the web.

[...] Flavorwire lists 10 things that are killing indie music in 2011. [...]

You had me until #4. Calling Mumford and Sons dullards puts you in the same category as the cynics you rail about in #3. Perhaps they’re not your taste, but on a purely musical level, they sing great, have great songs and put on an exciting live show. What on earth is dull about that? Now, it’s possible the critics do over-praise them, but that’s not their fault, nor should it be the basis of a criticism. Remember Morrissey, “it takes strength to be gentle and kind…”

the real indie culture these days is happening in electronic music. and i say this as an old guy, who was in it back in 89/90 in nyc and is now in it on the west coast bass scene. the music is very different of course, as is the aesthetic, but the values and processes are very very much the same. that’s where the underground is now — and it’s worldwide.

Premise flawed … You start out with comparing anti-hipsterism to anti-intellectualism (a terrible analogy by the way) and then go on to define hipsters in your criticisms of indie rock.

Huh, Good points over all, but mebbe it’s time for a new paradigm. Given all that has been said, is “indie” a valid concept anymore? Or is it just a marketing tool? As a former music fan and consumer (I’ve long since relegated myself to the substrata of casual listener – god forbid!) I’ve seen the “indie” ideal move from being something borne out of pure necessity as a way around what was once a tightly controlled media landscape (3 TV networks, Top 40 Radio, conglomerate distribution and marketing channels) to a stance that is equivocated with a style of presentation and consumption (in part because the circumstances that necessitated its original reason for existence either don’t exist anymore or have changed substantially). I’m not denigrating the latter at all, but once the term “indie” shift from being a mode of dissemination to being a signifier for consumption, its semantic value goes out the window. Think about it.

This article is rude, showy and the definition of pretentious in and of itself. Who’s the author(s) trying to reach, anyway? For which group of over-categorized people is it even meant? Sucks. They’ve basically said nothing at all, just spewed an attitude.

this is a terrible article. the worst I’ve read on this site.

How bout commenters actually try to enlighten with their ‘better’ contrary thoughts to the writers instead of insulting every which you can?

REM had a – I believe – #9 hit in 1987 called “The One I Love.” “Stand” came a year after that. . .then “Losing my Religion” in 1991. And they actually sold quite a few albums before then (Gold status for “Lifes (sic) Rich Pageant,” for example), and were highly-critically acclaimed, and had a HUGE college following. The original indie superstars, if you will. So while I agree with your point about not nurturing talent if it doesn’t blow up right away, I don’t think your argument re: REM is entirely correct.

it is good to give a s#&t.
it is cool to be gentle and kind.
it does take strength to speak out.
after all, we all love mucis.
good stuff. thanks!

Love this article!
Since a year ago or so, because it’s just from two or three years ago that I’ve been listening to indie music, I’ve noticed that there were not a lot of new bands that were very thrilling to me, except those that started their career in 90′s or before and have earned some cult for their really innovative or original music work. And it’s nice to read about why this could be. It’s hard to accept, but lately music scene is a bit quiet really, and I think this article is pretty well argumented and close to the core of the problem. Great magazine!

(I’m spanish, so sorry if there’s any mistake in the writting)

i’m sick of all the do-you-think-what-happened-30-years-ago-would-happen-today? lamenting. well, no shit! as one of indie’s predecessors so aptly crooned, “the times, they are a changin.” and they’re gonna keep changing and people 30 years from now will reflect on today’s music industry and come to the same sad conclusion. imagine that.

I do agree with a lot of points here, but I find it kind of disheartening that you found a way to bash cynicism and then in the same breath, slip in the names of a bunch of bands you don’t like…

Great article, and almost as bitter about music as I am.

I think “indie” music will be fine in the long run, because as soon as a band falls into one of these categories they in essence cease to be “indie,” or become “mainestream indie” which is a funny term in and of itself. The truly original artists will continue to do what they do regardless of what other trends the “trendsetters” are following, and in a lot of ways it’s easier for them to be discovered now than ever before (am I waiting for my band to get famous? Yes, yes I am) although it’s pretty unlikely any of them will ever make much money at it (which of course would be selling out anyway, right?)

story should have been printed on 0 pages, not 1, not 10…zero! lame references and inscrutably dour judgment abound here. or was that your point?

Am I the only one who keeps running into links that don’t properly work on this site as of late?

It’s about time I saw someone come forward in print to tell of Mumford and Sons’ dullness. I think the point is right. Most critics praise them, but the fact is they are dull and don’t really push anything to a dangerous or exciting new place. That’s certainly something that is killing indie music – safety.

This would be a much more affecting piece if its individual arguments didn’t keep directly contradicting each other.

Things that are killing indie music in 2011

#11 Bitter, sneering articles about aspects of the music industry barely related to the music being broken up into 10 pages to increase pageviews for cash.

I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to finally hear someone in the “blog-o-sphere” talking about this issue. Because in many ways, the rapid transfer of media through the internet (read:music blogs) has enabled the proliferation of shallowness. It’s interesting, to be in such tumultuous times (social revolutions, “class warfare”, the resurgence of conservatism) that there is practically nothing in culture that is reflected in music. In many ways, indie music is just as vacuous, trite, and shallow as the pop music pumped through MTV. And thats what’s most disheartening. Indie music always stood as a contrast to the norm. Now that boundary is thoroughly blurred.

Whether or not it’s a willful escapism, it seems that kids today are either dancing away the terror of reality or just so emotionally and culturally shallow that they don’t even care what’s going on…they just want to party. Either way, it seems depressing.

Mumford and Sons aren’t indie or critically lauded. http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/13906-sigh-no-more/
Great piece though.

Well, there’s 10 minutes of my life I’ll never get back.

This is an interesting read, but it says nothing that hasn’t already been said repeatedly over at least the last decade.

[...] Elitist Agenda” which I will get to shortly … but today there was an article about the “10 Things That Are Killing Indie Music in 2011″. And #1? “Suspicion of [...]

[...] What is killing indie music? Flavorwire has a theory. Ten theories, even. [...]

I’m 52, the mother of a 10 year old, a business owner and married. I clicked on a link to this site from a fashion blog of all places. I am old enough to have cycled through several of these “what’s killing music” debates by alt/indie music fans. I find it always heartening to know that people who are passionate about art and music are concerned about where it is heading. Every decade folks wonder who will be the next “authentic” band to lead everyone out of the weeds of depression about the direction of the music business. So I have to encourage those of you that dispair right now. There is so much great music out there on local and regional levels, as well as nationally and internationally (Tinarawen, anyone?) – as long as people have the need to express themselves emotionally and comment on their times, music will be made that finds its audience. Some of it will be bad, some will be okay, and some will be amazing. Very early on in their careers, I loved REM (“my” band when I was in college), Talking Heads,Los Lobos, Dire Straits. Not so much when they exploded onto the national scene and started playing areanas and stadiums. (I saw them all at the Armadillo World HQ in Austin – it held about 800 people). I listen to any and all kinds of music (rock, folk, jazz, French cafe, Hawaiian slack key, blues…) on a regular basis and can’t imagine living my life without new musical discoveries. They are out there to be made, if you work hard enough at it. Keep supporting live music and small local labels. It’s like food: if you buy from the local farmers (or grow it yourself) it will taste better than what you get in the chain supermarkets from big agribusiness. And when someone is lucky enought to make a nice living playing their music, then rejoice for their success. It’s really hard to do.

Holy shit, people. How fucking difficult is it to click 10 WHOLE TIMES to support content on a FREE WEBSITE THAT IS NOT CHARGING YOU ANYTHING AT ALL? Here’s another thing that’s killing appreciation of music: impatience.

interesting stuff. also, yuck are one of the worst bands iv ever heard. trust fund dickheads. what makes them any better then any of the thousands of early-90s grunge revivalists in evry town in england? answer? theyr connected, just like the horrors. thats what makes them “better”. just conforming to cliche by writing that.

Ironic: http://flavorpill.com/london/events/2011/11/16/lana-del-rey. On your London Flavorpill you seem to be all for Lana Del Rey. Oops. I really don’t see what the problem is. You all work to hard at pretension sometimes. And a 3rd of the links don’t load properly once again. Fail.

@S – actually, all that means is that we have a variety of editorial opinion here….

[...] a couple of the points a little better, but still, I’m pretty happy with it. Have a read here. « A trip to the planetarium (with Jay-Z and [...]

Click-bait articles are killing the internet

[...] we published our article last week about 10 things that are killing indie music, we got a predictably broad spectrum of responses — some people loved it, some people hated it. [...]

In addition to the ‘dullness as credibility’ portion: Not only if you play tedious lumpenfolk that uses acoustic guitars and olde worlde charme, you’re somehow viewed as inherently credible; but also the more you have soft-ethereal sounding voices, with light-nonthreatening instrumentals playing behind, the more indie-credible you are. It’s as if everyone is trying to make the Shin’s first album over and over again…and failing.

[...] at Flavorpill, we… well, let’s just say that we’re not entirely convinced by Lana Del Rey just yet. But whether you love her or hate her, there’s no doubt that the [...]

What kills music is formula – something that Flavorpill suffers deeply from. How many times do you guys have to do these lists? Must every article begin with a number of bullet points? I know you need page views, but it corrupts logic and rhetoric to be constrained to making your writing fit a power point.

Further, let’s be honest – there’s quite a few great, ambitious, accessible, innovative bands doing their thing right now, arguably more than 5 years ago.

Many of these are great points, but what about the tendency in music journalism to paint with overly broad strokes? That is, lumping bands together who have similar “sounds” regardless of songwriting? So much that falls into Camp Mumford & Sons (or Camp Fleet Foxes…) does have really lazy and dull songwriting. But not all!

[...] little earlier this year, we ran an article about the things we felt were wrong with indie music in 2011. One of the points we mentioned was [...]

[...] mitad de la blogósfera puede odiarla a muerte por ser el estandarte del indie prefabricado pero no hay caso con esta canción: un hit [...]

so the author claims in one sentence that people look down on hipsters for being pretentious and that they think they are smarter than everyone else but in the next calls it “anti-intellectualism”. since when is indie music intellectual? this is a pretty pretentious comment by itself and actually supports this “stereotype”. comments like this are what makes me want to punch hipsters in the face

i will always dabble in indie music but never support it because of people like this. just because you decide to play some folk music that goes against the norms doesnt make you intellectual,or even a musician as most of the indie i listen to is utter crap. i think ill stick to post hardcore as my go to genre. music is music, not a way to sit on your high horse and insult the people you think are below you

Way to come in six months late and completely miss the point, T-Rav

Political discourse in the Reagan era and since has indeed been generally idiotic, but it was generally idiotic before then. I’m not sure that there has ever been a large community in which _most_ political discourse were not idiotic, and _some_ of the political discourse of the Reagan era was quite astute. I have to wonder about the more general astuteness of anyone who would suggest that the political discourse of the Carter era was not typically first-order idiocy.